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Ugly hacks

Template:AA As you can see, I made some creative hacks to the template because fields like eo_wplink were not working (in this case, on Cole Porter it generated ""). This really needs to be fixed on a more fundamental level than I can do but at the very least you can link from any WMF project to any other one with these little redirects. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 00:20, 2 January 2015 (PST)

To be honest, I have never liked the AA template, but since it was developed before I was seriously involved in this project I have not touched it for fear of making things worse. I can't complain about what you have done. Doing more would take a lot of discussion directed at understanding what we are trying to do with this or some other template, then applying more advanced knowledge about how these templates work. Eclecticology 13:58, 2 January 2015 (PST)
Template What don't you like about it? It can all be amended, right? I'd be happy to help fix it how you think it should be. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 14:13, 2 January 2015 (PST)
The important thing for me about author pages is the link to their works. The multilingual material to identify them is too top heavy, and as the number of languages increases would get longer. Something which gives the material in one's own language only would be more effective. I would also like to see the author namespace used. Eclecticology 00:13, 3 January 2015 (PST)
All this is due to the history of Wikilivres. It started in French only, and tried to imitate Wikisource as much as possible. Then it became multilingual while still keeping all in one domain only. Now Wikisource has evolved, but Wikilivres didn't. Regards, Yann 13:51, 3 January 2015 (PST)
All true enough. French Wikisource was quick to abandon the idea of the Author namespace, but English Wikisource still maintains it. When templates have been imported they have come from several different Wikisources, each with its own subtle understandings that may not have been compatible. Imports from Commons have been particularly problematic, because this project is by nature still a Wikisource spinoff. Eclecticology 19:11, 3 January 2015 (PST)

Namespaces I don't think that it's preferable to keep all content in one wiki regardless of source language and I think that Wikisource's model to use language subdomains is probably best, although I realize that it was actually a big deal to split them when the site was broken up about a decade ago. That having been said, if you want an "Author" namespace (which I'm assuming would be in English), then why don't you make one? If I'm correct, you control the site now, right? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 01:46, 4 January 2015 (PST)

I strongly supported keeping Wikisource in a single domain when that was an active dispute, and I still believe that it was the right position to take. I still believe in the underlying principle that it can make the literature of other languages more available, if only in translation. Your point about the namespace is well taken. Perhaps I do need to be bolder in these technical matters of applying Mediawiki. Eclecticology 23:01, 6 January 2015 (PST)
Author: Do you intend to keep using English as a lingua franca on the site (e.g. "Author" rather than "Auteur" and "Category", not "Categoría")? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 01:20, 7 January 2015 (PST)
Why not. We also use words like user, special: recent changes, image and others. If ne´cessary you can translate / localize it, but if somebody is taking part in a multilingual project, so he should have the minimal knowledges for instance in English. If not, so we could not discus here each to other neither. -jkb- 04:26, 7 January 2015 (PST)
Keeping English as a lingua franca is the only practical solution. Nevertheless, as I understand it Mediawiki does allow for localized namespace names. It's still important to use native languages as much as possible, even if that can be technically challenging. Eclecticology 10:20, 7 January 2015 (PST)
Localized namespace names is only possible on different subdomains. That's one of the main reason a namespace for authors was not used initially. I thought of using A: as a separate namespace, which is the simplest possible common name for authors. Regards, Yann 06:05, 8 January 2015 (PST)
Well, if I assume that there is just about a dozen of active users here, so there would be about a dozen People in the world who would understand what A: is :-) - all other ones, who want to read something here, would be surprized I guess -jkb- 15:20, 8 January 2015 (PST)
To say the truth I don't see a need for creating the Author namespace. In my opinion it would be only art for art's sake... It would improved nothing. Electron   16:57, 8 January 2015 (PST)

Guidance on lyrics and sheet music

Formatting I've poked around a little and it looks like pages which are lyrics and sheet music to popular songs (e.g. Autumn (Twitchell—Ives)) include the use of Template:Poem as a header and then have sheet music scans reproduced below the lyrics. Is this standardized? Are there any other best practices for popular music pages here? Thanks. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 00:56, 2 January 2015 (PST)

See Night and Day I gave it a shot but I don't have sheet music yet. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 14:17, 2 January 2015 (PST)
[Passing note: I really shouldn't try to edit anything when Benny Goodman's Sing, Sing, Sing is on the stereo]. I don't know that there has ever been any discussion about the problem you raise. People have just done what they can. Ideally I would like to see the music in an editable format like Lilypond, but that takes someone who is willing to do that work. Until then the scans will have to do. Eclecticology 15:04, 2 January 2015 (PST)
The page Wikilivres:Lilypond gives me a blank, but if I go to I still get the proper edit page. Does anyone have any idea why? Eclecticology 15:42, 2 January 2015 (PST)
Problems with Lilypond I've had issues with it as well. I don't know why pages are blank but as you point out, Wikilivres:Lilypond is a completely blank document: nothing in HTML, where as clearly shows content. Do you know of any other sites that use Lilypond? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 09:09, 3 January 2015 (PST)
Wikisource now uses Lilypond. Regards, Yann 13:46, 3 January 2015 (PST)
Curiously Wikilivres:Lilypond/Example6 seems to work correctly, but the similarly named examples 4 and 5 do not. Eclecticology 16:38, 3 January 2015 (PST)

Lilybook All of the non-functional examples use a tag named "lilybook" which evidently breaks the page. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 01:43, 4 January 2015 (PST)

Feel free to experiment with these Lilypond pages. Eclecticology 01:23, 6 January 2015 (PST)
Experimentation How did these pages even get made in the first place? They have edit histories and must have displayed previously. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 09:14, 6 January 2015 (PST)
Yann did a lot of work on this in November 2007. This edit: is the earliest that no longer works, but it must have worked then or he would not have made so many additional edits. Eclecticology 10:38, 6 January 2015 (PST)
Yes, it worked at that time. The issue is probably that the version of Lilypond is different (older?), or configured differently, that the one used previously. Regards, Yann 05:59, 8 January 2015 (PST)

Linking with WMF projects

Getting started One of my goals in the Wikisphere is to link between this project and WMF projects. To that end, I've made this template with this category and have started putting it into articles on en.wp. I figured I'd let you know. There might be a spike in traffic: anyone who has access to those statistics, please let me know. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 11:46, 17 January 2015 (PST)

This is absolutely a great idea, from the Wikilivres perspective. There may still be some people from the WMF projects who may feel that this is an infringement by linkage, but that's not my worry. I'm also with you on the general principle, but it does involve a tremendous amount of work. I try as much as possible to link from here to Wikipedia, but I limit coming back in the other direction because at some point I must impose limits on myself based on how much is doable. One of my arguments against the division of Wikisource into language domains was that participants in each such domain would tend to isolate themselves in their own domains. To me the vision of Wikisource/Wikilivres includes translations and annotations. While I can't criticize too harshly those who believe in the meticulous reproduction of old texts, going as far as retaining the long ſ from 18th century publications, there are other directions where there would be a better cost/benefit ratio. Improved linkages are one of the more obvious inclusions in this. Eclecticology 14:12, 17 January 2015 (PST)
Linking I don't understand exactly what you're saying here: "There may still be some people from the WMF projects who may feel that this is an infringement by linkage"--has this community ever had any problems with WMF communities? Where you making fun of me on that last part? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 08:59, 18 January 2015 (PST)
There is a tendency in WMF projects to take a very strict interpretation of US copyright law such that linking to a site that is in the public domain in other countries but still protected in the US could be viewed as infringement. I don't agree with that view, but it is a potential problem. On the long ſ it is an old view not tied to any specific text. I believe that content is more important than typography. (I didn't even know that you had edited such a text.) In many cases if the work was reprinted after 1800 this typographical anomaly would have been replaced. Eclecticology 11:44, 18 January 2015 (PST)

Relationship with

Please see here Did I get this right? Have I understood the relationship between the Canadian and Russian Wikilivreses? Why/how did the split happen? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 09:01, 18 January 2015 (PST)

The reason for the split was indeed that I did not want to accept NC and ND licences. User:Dmitri Smirnov continues to edit here, and has been doing most of the work of transferring material. How you define "sister site" is unclear. The management of is completely independent of, and is presumably operating under Russian law. "Spin-off" may be a more accurate term. I must question the hyper-plural "Wikilivreses". Since "Wikilivres" is already a plural, it might well be invariable in the hyper-plural. Eclecticology 12:39, 18 January 2015 (PST)

Template:TextQuality or Template:TQ

I have introduced the parameters 20% and 70% In the immediate future these will mean exactly the same as 25% and 75% respectively. The first digit is adequate for the designation of text quality as we now know it. This will free the second for indicating the presence of linkages, translations, and other special features. These will be defined in due course; a 5 as the second digit will not be defined until its current usage has been eliminated. Eclecticology 14:05, 25 January 2015 (PST)

Numbers I don't understand why you're doing this. Can you explain more what the problem was that this is fixing? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 19:43, 25 January 2015 (PST)
I wouldn't say that it was necessarily a "problem". It just opens up the possibility of a more detailed use of the template. Eclecticology 21:19, 25 January 2015 (PST)
E.g.? Can you give me an example or proof of concept? I'm still not sure why 20% an an input allows you anything more than 25%... —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 21:47, 25 January 2015 (PST)
Both 20% and 25% will show that the text on the page is only partial. Eventually 22% may show that wiki-links have been added, 24% that the the text has been annotated, 28% that translations have been made, etc. At that point 20% alone would show that none of this has been done. 52% would show a full text with wiki-links, and so forth. Eclecticology 02:04, 26 January 2015 (PST)

Bad news for Canadian copyright law

See here Evidently, Wikilivres will soon be made redundant. Maybe we should move to a .za domain? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 00:52, 5 February 2015 (PST)

Let's not jump to conclusions yet. The entire status of the TPP is up in the air. I don't trust the current government, but there's an election coming up in October, and the new government at that time may view things differently. Even if the new treaty is completed with the 70 years pma provision, changes will need to be made to the Copyright Act. The treaty is not self-actualizing. There is certainly no guarantee that all this can be done by the end of 2016 when Walt Disney's personal work goes into the public domain. Eclecticology 02:36, 10 February 2015 (PST)

Links to

Linking As you may have noticed, I recently edited Template:AA to add a field for Wikidata. I feel like that could be a very useful resource for multilingual education and works on an author. I have noticed that since this site got rid of CC NC/ND works, they have moved to and we have templates such as Template:CC-BY-NC-Author which explain that we don't host these not-quite-as-free works. Should I amend the text to read something like, "See this author's works on"? Should I amend Template:AA to include links to that as well?

On a related note, do we know which locality has the most liberal copyright law that would allow legal reproduction of works? I know that there are international conventions about this but I'm not an expert on copyright. Thanks a lot. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 15:59, 24 February 2015 (PST)

About links in template AA to why not?
About the most liberal copyright law: see domain. It seems that these coutres have the most liberal copyright law:
  1. Maldives - none
  2. Marshall Islands - none
  3. Seychelles - life + 25
  4. Libya - life + 25, with 50-year minimum (as of 1968; may have changed since)
  5. Yemen - life + 30
  6. Iran - life + 30
But I don't think it is a good idea to move the site to one of these countries ;) Electron   16:28, 24 February 2015 (PST) Granted, .mh is dormant and .mv is hosted in a place with extremely restrictive laws but would there be a problem with —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 18:06, 24 February 2015 (PST)
There's no problem with editing the AA template to allow a link to Wikidata. If an author has pages on it's fine to link to them, but I dont see the need for having this as a part of the template. Gradually we are deprecating Template:CC-BY-NC-Author. Amending the text to show that the works are on ignores the fact that they could as well be in a different website. These other domains are not desirable. We need to consider if these places have reliable internet hosting, and not be subject to political censorship. Canada also follows the rule of the shorter term, and has a healthy attitude toward fair dealing. Before moving to some other country all details should be carefully studied. Eclecticology 00:29, 25 February 2015 (PST)
Links I'm mostly kidding about another Wikilivres: Canadian hosting probably provides the best bet that we have for making this content freely available. I don't understand why you think "these other domains are not desirable": more freely-licensed works is a better thing, right? I can't speak to whether or not .ru is reliably hosted or subject to censorship, etc. (I cannot understand Russian and I will not join the site as they require a real name). —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 02:25, 25 February 2015 (PST)
The lack of desirability for some of these domains are based on the uncertainty of internet infrastructure in these countries. The governments in Yemen and Lybia are particularly unstable, and Iran would certainly raise eyebrows even if it does have some desirable characteristics. I do not participate in the .ru site; my understanding of the language is too limited. Similarly, if someone else wants to operate a wiklivres site in any other top level domain at his own expense and legal responsibility I will not put up barriers to this happening. Eclecticology 12:58, 25 February 2015 (PST)


Consistency Right now, we have solicited content in a handful of languages and accepted some in a few more making a total of about a dozen. Mostly, one navigates through the content of everything in English, though. Is this what we want? We also have inconsistencies with things like Category:French and Category:Español. Should these be renamed to Category:Français or Category:Spanish? Thoughts? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 19:01, 9 April 2015 (PDT)

I think it's important to keep an English master list of categories. Corresponding categories in other languages should be viewed as optional, and can still redirect to the English page. That is the case with the two examples that you give. Maintaining a fully functional and parallel category system in one other language may require more human resources than are available to us. Eclecticology 06:18, 10 April 2015 (PDT)
I agree with Eclecticology, in order to have a good classification (and for consistency) I would maintain the master category root in english. --C.R. 13:34, 24 April 2015 (PDT)
Probably yes. More over, we schould rename only in such cases when we are sure it will make sense for a longer time. In the beginning we had the category Česká díla which was renamed to Czech works somemonth ago. -jkb- 14:11, 24 April 2015 (PDT)

Upload doesn't work

Hi, the Upload Page doesn't seem to work at all. Perhaps this is because the "Licensing:" button doesn't work? It offers no options, and only shows "None selected".

To upload from your computer also seems to be set to a very small filesize (2 MB). But even uploading from a URL (up to 100 MB) doesn't seem to work, as somebody already mentioned above.

Any advise? Yonadav Schwartz 12:06, 12 April 2015 (PDT)

Meybe you have too small edits here to upload files? Electron   03:14, 14 April 2015 (PDT)
Really? How many edits might one need? Since my initial edits before typing texts will be on the filepages themselves, that might be a hard problem to solve... :-) Yonadav Schwartz 08:58, 14 April 2015 (PDT)
As I remember it is above 100 edits, usually. For me the upload works properly; see: for test I uploaded this file: File:Ostap Bender - head shape.png. Electron   12:12, 14 April 2015 (PDT)
Maybe it works for very small files like .png? Yonadav Schwartz 01:02, 15 April 2015 (PDT)
I don't think so. Maybe you try to upload files too big? Try smaller then 2 MB, on the firts... Btw. There -> Special:ListGroupRights are described users rights. It seems that all registered "users" (as you) have rights to upload files. Only "Autoconfirmed users" (users who have more then 100 edits and create its account more thane 4 days ago, as I mentioned) can "import pages from a file upload", but its not impotant here. So I don't know what the problem is. Maybe the problem is on yours side? - try to upload on other computer or other internet browsers... Electron   04:08, 15 April 2015 (PDT)
Thanks. It works fine at other websites. If I do upload a very small file as an experiment, I just want to make sure that it can be deleted afterwards and won't be considered spam. Yonadav Schwartz 05:13, 16 April 2015 (PDT)
OK, you can try. Electron   02:03, 17 April 2015 (PDT)

Hi, sorry that it took me a while to get back to this. I just upload a tiny test file here. It worked! So I guess there is no personal limitation the by number of edits. Maybe the real problem is the 2MB limit, as someone already wrote above, which means that book scans basically cannot be uploaded here. Can anything be done to get this changed?

The test file I uploaded may of course be deleted by an administrator. Thanks, Yonadav Schwartz 04:09, 30 April 2015 (PDT)

To change the limit 2 MB for file uploads it is need to set new maximum size for file uploads in php.ini file on the server where this wiki is instaled. To allow uploading of larger files, the server admin should edit these parameters in php.ini:
   post_max_size, 8 megabytes large by default
   upload_max_filesize, 2 megabytes large by default
See: Configuring file uploads: Set maximum size for file uploads
I have no access to this file; Eclecticology has. Electron   17:05, 3 May 2015 (PDT)

More bad news on Canadian copyright

See here regarding Canadian copyright on music recordings. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 21:48, 17 May 2015 (PDT)

We'll see what happens with the October election. Eclecticology 23:38, 17 May 2015 (PDT)

Internationalization again and a question on donations

I wanted to ask the community a kind of broad question about our direction when it comes to internationalization and languages offered here. Right now, we've prioritized Chinese, Czech, German, English, French, Polish, Russian, and Spanish as languages for the interface at Wikilivres:Localization. I'm trying to finish that up soon, so that the site is really multilingual (Spanish is almost done). Do we want to include other languages as well? I'm not good at Portuguese but probably good enough to do this interface translation. Do we have any roadmap for inclusion of other languages? We have some material in several other languages (Albanian, Dutch, Esperanto, Georgian, Hebrew, Neapolitan, and Turkish); do we want to internationalize to those as well? I see that we also have a stray reference to Interlingua, too... (Edit: it only exists for this redlink: Antoine_de_Saint-Exupéry#Interlingua_translations.)

As a secondary concern, right now Wikilivres:Site_support is fairly useless as the PayPal donation link is marked out by HTML comments. Evidently, that link is no longer valid. Is there an account that I can link to for donations? Is there a place where I can give $20 to support the site? If not, there's no point in even having it in the sidebar. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 09:16, 10 June 2015 (PDT)

Hi. I'm really not sure if we should internationalize so much. Languages like Albanianor Georgian are here because the articles were copyvio on Oldwikisource, I'm not quite happy I posted them here as there is nobody to take care. And, I would expect, that visitors could know such words like work, author, licence etc. in English. Secondly: I don't see either the necessity of localisation of such words like Elegies, Fables, Ballads, Epitaphs, Limericks, Laments, Odes... etc., as it is quite subjective to categorize it like this, normally poetry, poems etc. is enough. And, the tranlations of words like limerics can be quite different in some languages as well. That's why I am rather pessimistic on this point. Cheers, -jkb- 12:58, 10 June 2015 (PDT)
Names I agree that the genres of poem and song seem unnecessary. If others feel they should be deleted, that can easily be done. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 13:06, 10 June 2015 (PDT)
Ey, I do not vote for the deletion, it's just my private opinion. Let us see what other ones say :-) -jkb- 13:52, 10 June 2015 (PDT)
I'm opposite to deletion; I use them for Polish section. And not only for Polish, e.g. for translations. Electron   07:24, 11 June 2015 (PDT)
Deletion Sure: let's just table deletion. What about the other things I wrote? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 07:26, 11 June 2015 (PDT)
About other languages: why not? If you have time and the will - maybe it would be helpful for somebody. I speak Polish, English, Russian (and a little Belarusian) - so I translate these first 2 sections from time to time (if I have free time).
The donation - I have no my own opinion, I am not the owner of this site. I think that Eclecticology should decide. Electron   07:40, 11 June 2015 (PDT)

These are important questions, and some recent health difficulties highlight that I should pay greater attention to the funding.

  1. My costs in the current year for the operation of the site have been C$516.47 for hosting, payable in March, and C$11.50 for the domain name. I am also paying the domain fees for the .org and .net names, but I am only sitting on them. On the occasion of the last renewal I increased RAM by 1Gb; this added C$50.40 to the cause. Thus far, I see no need to increase the site's capacity at the next renewal. It would be prudent for me to open a Paypal account in the name of Wikilivres, and I will look into that possibility. I am not soliciting donations at this time, but will appreciate any that are made. If by some chance those donations exceed annual costs I would need to explore possible improvements. Please advise me if those donations should be publicly recognized. Unless the annual budget exceeds C$1,000 (perhaps more) I don't think it would be worthwhile to pursue the extra paperwork that comes with incorporation, formal non-profitability or tax deductibility.
  2. I don't think that some of the categories for sub-categories of literature are particularly useful, but then I might react more favorably to "obituaries", "biographies" or "reviews". I don't support a scorched earth approach to removing these categories, but I prefer that a common sense approach to their usefulness be kept in mind.
  3. On language internationalization it is important that we be aware of our capacity to curate these language. The unfortunate thing about the Georgian language pages is that there is no-one here to care for them. Copyright violation at Wikisource alone should not be a default reason for adding pages here. Similarly we have a number of image pages that were transferred from Commons for the same reason. Curating image files is a particular problem for those of us who arrived here from a Wikisource type project.
  4. I see that the links for non-commercial pages have been removed. In principle, I agree with this. Still I think it's premature. For now moving these to a "Deprecated links" heading would have been better. That would make it easier to trace pages that use the template. They could still be deleted once the referenced material is gone. Eclecticology 14:38, 19 June 2015 (PDT)
Donations I actually wanted to give you a little money (I'm from the United States). If you want to undelete something from Wikilivres:Internationalization, then I certainly won't object. I agree that curating material in relatively obscure languages is a problem but I'm not sure how to resolve it. Have you or Yann ever made an effort to reach out to the Georgian-reading WMF community? As an aside, I have tried to use AutoWikiBrowser here and it could not connect. Do you know anything about this? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 14:50, 19 June 2015 (PDT)

Works on Wikisource/Commons

Reproduction Should we host works here that are on Wikisource as well? Or files that are available on Commons? Wikilivres:About reads, "You are welcome to publish texts here if they cannot be accepted in Wikisource. Most texts that can be accepted in Wikisource should be published there." (with two exceptions to this general rule). Does that mean that we shouldn't have duplication between the two projects? Is it a problem to have texts at both? The issue that I have in mind is authors such as George Orwell or E. E. Cummings who have some works in the Canadian public domain but not in the American, so readers trying to find their works will have to go between both sites. Thoughts? —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 20:11, 21 June 2015 (PDT)

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